So true

Alice Miller

Wherever I look, I see signs of the commandment to honor one's parents and nowhere of a commandment that calls for the respect of a child. Alice Miller

Comments and thoughts on the “Doll” Documentary” by Zohar Wagner

Comments and thoughts on the “Doll” Documentary” by Zohar Wagner

 Hi Zohar, I finally had some time to elaborate on your comments.

My words might trigger pain in you, but pain is the way to our truth and avoiding pain causes blockage because, without our truth, true liberation is not possible. The old cliché “the truth will set you free” is very true; our truth will set us free, but first will make us miserable.  

I went over your story again and I did not finish reading it again, because during my career as a topless dancer I listened and witness to your story many times over and is nothing new to me and knew at the end you are still stuck in your story and there is no true resolution and liberation and sadly now there is also an innocent little child in your emotional prison with you. 

Unfortunately most dancers make exactly the same mistakes you did and hurt themselves and the men, because they mutually exploited each other, men trying to exploit them sexually and the dancers try to get as much money out of them as they possibly could and they did not have boundaries and limits in what they did in order to get to the men’s money, so they were each other’s victims. 

I look back in my career as a topless dancer and I am proud of myself that I made my money dancing and dancing only and did not ever let men touch me in a way that was not respectable to me, no matter how much money they offered me, they use to tell me: everyone has a price. and I always answered: I don’t have a price, I only sell dances, they are $10 a dance, and that is all I sell, if they wanted to tip me more they could, but I did not expect more or try to get more money out of them, I treated them like human beings that were in the same boat as me and men respected me and admire me and the other dancers looked up to me also. 

Today I would not recommend any woman to become a topless dancer, because today things have changed and the dancers are expected to dance right on the patrons’ lap and touching is allowed, something I would never be comfortable with and when these changes started to happen at the club where I was dancing  at, that’s when I started having problems with dancing, because I sure did not want strangers touching me and that’s when I got out of dancing, because every day became harder and harder for me to enforce my rules of not touching and it stopped being fun. I especially would not recommend dancing nude, dancing nude for me was always out of the question, but dancing overall for me was a positive experience and an aid to my liberation.

Men sometimes were so shocked by my honesty and genuineness that they used to ask me too, all the time: what a nice girl like you doing in a topless bar? You sound more like a nun that belongs in a convent and I use to tell them jokingly because I don’t really believe in god, I believe in love, but not in god: I am working undercover for God!

 Topless dancing/stripping is an art form and like all art is a symbolic language trying to express something that needs to be understood. Judging and rejecting this art form of expression, we will never come to discover the meaning of this symbolic expression. All art form is trying to communicate in a symbolic language the unresolved traumas that have been repressed when we did not have a vocabulary to give a voice to it, that be through painting, writing, dancing, etc. so no dancing/stripping in itself is not problematic in our society, but all forms of child abuse are, exploiting and using children to satisfy the needs of parents and adults that’s what is problematic in our society and the roots of all evil. We could also say that Michael Jackson art form was bad because it contributed to his premature death, but we are not telling people that being a songwriter, dancer, and a singer is bad and people should not get into this type of art form, because others can exploit you and contribute to a premature death. When I was a dancer I use to tell the other dancers: if what you are doing does not hurt you or others then go ahead and do it, but if hurts you or others in any way, it’s not worth it doing it, you might be able to make extra money in the short term, but in the long term you will lose.

Some people have some extreme repressed unresolved childhood traumas and men and women that use this art form that be performers or spectators are no different from other people that choose to use a different art form, but because childhood traumas cannot ever be resolved in a symbolic way, but only by facing and feeling in the right context the repressed emotions of the child we once were as they are triggered by present events. These words by Alice Miller came to mind: “It is a great mistake to imagine that one can resolve traumas in a symbolic fashion. If that were possible, poets, painters, and other artists would be able to resolve their pain through creativity. This is not the case, however. Creativity helps us channel the pain of trauma into symbolic acts; it doesn't help us resolve it. If symbolic revenge for maltreatment received in childhood were effective, then dictators would eventually stop humiliating and torturing their fellow human beings. As long as they choose to deceive themselves about who really deserves their hatred, however, and as long as they go on feeding that hatred in symbolic form instead of experiencing and resolving it within the context of their own childhood, their hunger for revenge will remain insatiable (see Miller 1990a).” read more here

Art can be used as an aid to help understand ourselves, but when people use art, any type of art form to exploit or manipulate others, it becomes destructive. I saw many dancers self-destruct quick, because they tried to exploit the men out of their money and heard them brag how much money they had gotten out of just one man, and of course men also tried to exploit the dancers as much they could, a very dangerous game that I refused to play, because I knew, I would lose in the end and I am very proud I made my money without exploiting the men and letting men exploit me. The men knew they could only have me in their fantasies, but not in reality and I never thought of sex while dancing, well maybe once, when I first met my boyfriend of ten years, but that’s because I was very attracted to him and that would have happened, no matter where I met the man I would fall in love with, when I was dancing, I was just working, not thinking of sex and I think most men I danced for they were not thinking of sex either, but trying to talk to me, because I don’t know why people always want to talk to me and are fascinated by me, maybe because I am so real. At my real job right now where I am fully clothed, I know some men have fantasies about me and probably think about having sex with me, but that does not make me a prostitute because of men thinking about having sex with me. I have no control over people’s thoughts and fantasies. I take it as a compliment if men or even women fantasize about having sex with me, I just don’t want to know about their fantasies with me.

 Sylvie: I agree with Amber Hage-Ali. I did not read the whole thing, because I got bored of reading all her projections of her issues with dancing, stripping, and sexuality. Just because she has issues with it, does not mean others can handle it well and be actually a tool to help them free themselves from the lies and hypocrisy of society. Everything we experience in life can aid a person to liberation or get them deeper in their vicious cycles, it depends on the person. And it looks like it from reading her article she went deeper into her vicious cycle, became more unconscious and emotionally blind from her experience as a dancer/stripper. If you doing something and you are having fun while doing it and you are at peace with it, it’s not prostitution, but if only doing it to for money then you are prostituting yourself, so if she is doing this documentary just thinking about the money it can make her then she is prostituting herself right now. Comparing dancing to prostituting is BS because you thinking of sex and the only thing is missing is penetration, so if I walk down street and I find a guy really sexy and I think about having sex with him or vise verse then I am being a prostitute, because the only thing missing is penetration, whatever!

Sylvie: What I am getting from her article is that her experience as a dancer/stripper triggered guilty feelings in her, but dancing/stripping was just the trigger of her guilt, not the cause and now unconsciously and in a very sophisticated way she is projecting and transferring her guilty feelings into other women that still are dancing/stripping for a living, but unless she gets to the real cause of her guilty feelings this will be just a superficial and temporary fix, because our painful feelings cannot ever be resolved by projection and transference, they only can be resolved by getting to the root of our painful feelings. She is using her sexuality right now with her sexy picture to get attention to her article, which is totally fine with me, we all constantly use our sexuality to sell things and is a fact that sexy and good looking people usually make more money in their field. I just wish she was using her sexuality to enlightening others and not to unconsciously transfer her guilt into others.

 Sylvie: She says she was pregnant and had a child and if she does not really resolve these guilt feelings in the right context and keeps blaming present triggers, sadly she will transfer unconsciously also into her child her guilt feelings and will go on endless…

Zohar Wagner: hi girls I am Zohar Wagner the director of "DOLL", and yes stripping is prostitution! And I don’t feel guilty at all, I just want to warn other girls and help them enjoy sexuality in better ways than stripping in front of strangers who don't appreciate you at all. Amber, you're right it's not as black and white as wrong or right. I’m not against taking away women's choice, but assigning women's choice to the sex industry is problematic. The sex industry is run by men for men (mostly) and "there is no universal experience for strippers, each one enters into the workforce for a different reason and has a different experience" Can you really deny that the reason for entering this world is because of men exploitation?

Sylvie: Just because you say dancing/stripping is prostitution, does not make it so. I just prove to you that a dancer is not a prostitute, just because you and most dancers prostitute themselves while dancing, it does not mean all do, maybe I am one in a million, but I feel I am not just one in a million while I was dancing, but I feel am one in a million in general, because I can see in depths that most people in our society cannot. We live in emotionally blind society and people are prostituting themselves in all professions not just dancers, hurting themselves and others. Prostitution is only when you do something you don’t want to do, but you do it for the money and money only. You did things you did not want to do while stripping and you felt like a prostitute and feel guilty and bad about it and your denials do not change reality, that you are, like it or not transferring your bad feelings into others. Women that marry for money and money only are prostitutes too, but they only prostitute themselves with one man, but still a prostitute nevertheless. I worked for 18 years as a topless dancer and not once I did something I did not want to do. I was in total control and I had my limits. I had fun while doing it and made good money at it and the day I stopped having fun dancing that was the day I got out. I never once I felt I was a prostitute, if you did things you did not want to do while you danced. You were a prostitute. But please stop projecting yourself into other dancers. 

We can be honest with ourselves and others in any profession and we only get exploited if we allow others to exploit us. I am having a feeling you are prostituting yourself with this documentary because you are thinking of the money and money only that it can make you. I hate to burst your illusion, but if you think you are helping others by unconsciously and compulsively transferring your bad feelings about what you did in the past is not helping anyone not even yourself.

“What doesn't kill you makes you stronger and gives you fodder for films ... but, hey, some people enjoy complaining.”

Sylvie: Actually what doesn’t kill you makes you weaker and it’s obvious the author’s experience made her weaker and now she is transferring unconsciously her bad feelings into others like all weak people do.

Zohar: Sylvie I value your opinion, it’s just how I view this subject from my own personal experience, I'd love to discuss this with you and show you another side of stripping that might change your mind, this is one of my goals of making this movie to change conceptions. The movie also explores issues such as rape and sexual abuse, as a rape victim it is my intention to try and educate other young women that stripping is anything but "choice" and no I don't feel bad or ashamed about my past Sylvie, this is something many men and my raper tried to convince others, I must admit it's overwhelming reading your comments, but again I hope I'll be able to change some of your views.

Sylvie: they are emotionally wounded people in all professions and dancers too, some are more damaged than others, and the ones that allow men to do things to them they don’t want to and let themselves be exploited are a symptom of being exploited as small children by the people that were supposed to be their protectors, usually their parents and until they face and heal these old wounds they will be in an exploitive relationships where they exploit others or allow others to exploit them, no matter where they are, that, be in dancing/stripping or a lawyer, doctor or film maker, etc. You say you don’t have bad feelings about stripping, but your denials will not heal these painful feelings, if they were not in you, you would not be unconsciously and compulsively projecting them outward with your documentary, but it will be just a temporary and superficial fix and you have proof of it right now by the fact that my posts are triggering overwhelming feelings in you. Stripping was not the cause of your painful feelings just like my posts are not the cause of your overwhelming feelings, but only the triggers and you can use these opportunities to face those old repressed feelings or unconsciously and compulsively reenacting exploitive relationships where you are projecting yourself into others or let others project themselves into you and sadly if you don’t resolve these painful feelings, but keep repressing them with the aid of literature or whatever you find appealing to distract yourself from feeling your painful feelings in the context of your childhood traumas, you will unconsciously and compulsively transfer your unresolved painful feelings into your innocent child that absolutely has nothing to do with it. Most parents desire to have children come from their unconscious needs to have an available object to project themselves into.

Zohar: Stripping wasn't the cause of my "painful feelings" Rape by my gynecologist at age 15 was the real cause. Sylvie, I understand now from your first comment that you got bored from my projections, reading the whole article, and I apologize. But yes, those are my own projections which you seem so fiercely object to. But maybe reading the whole article and watching the movie will bring us to a much more productive discussion on sexual abuse, stripping, rape and what is really free will and what is just plain old exploitation. I'll be happy to update you with online screening I'm about to launch and to have a live debate with you, my goal is to always try and better understand each other more.

Sylvie: Zohar, reading your last post it brought tears to my eyes because I could feel your raw pain and I am so sorry your gynecologist forced himself into you when he should have been helping you and instead harmed you, which, proves they are abusers in all fields, not just in adult entertaining clubs and from my experience all abusers love the “helping professions” but I would go even deeper, because usually we fall into abusive situations because of earlier abuse as a baby and as small child when we did not have a vocabulary to give a voice to it and the gynecologist was already a reenactment of your trauma at the hands of your parents or others caregivers, if we don’t have the repressed emotions of the child we once were blinding us and when we come in to contact with an abuser our senses will alert us of the dangers to get away in time. 

Obviously because of these earlier accumulated unresolved traumas in your life, you were not able to keep healthy boundaries and limits to protect yourself as a dancer, but until these earlier traumas are really resolved no matter where you are, you are going to be in exploitative relationships, where you unconsciously and compulsively exploiting others ore others exploit you, as long the repressed emotions to the traumas you suffered as a small child remain repressed the compulsion to repeat will continue in one form or another and there is no escape no matter where you are. 

In her book: The Drama of the Gifted Child” Alice Miller says: “If the repression stays unresolved, the parents’ childhood tragedy is unconsciously continued on in their children”
Also, these words by Alice Miller come to mind: “Abuse means to me using a person for whatever I want from her, him, without asking for their agreement, without respecting their will and their interests. With children, it is very easy to do so, because they are loving, they trust their parents and most adults, and they don’t realize that they were abused, that their love had been exploited. Especially if they were forced to ignore their emotions from the beginning, they might have lost their sensibility for the warning signals. A small girl will follow to the cellar the neighbour who promised her chocolate, although she may feel uncomfortable. But if she learned from the beginning of her life that her feelings didn’t matter and that she should obey every adult person, even if she feels resistance, she will follow the neighbour. She will behave like the Little Red Riding-Hood in the fairytale. And she may later suffer in her relationship with men for her whole life if she didn’t work out this early experience in the cellar. However, if she does, she will no longer be in danger of becoming a victim of rape or any other kind of molestation.” Alice Miller “Free from Lies” page 234

I wish you courage and strength in resolving the repressed painful emotions relating to your earlier traumas, so the tragedy of your childhood is not repeated with your child.

 Zohar: Thank you, Sylvie, I appreciate your comment.

Sylvie: Hi Zohar, I don’t have time to write at the moment, but I just like to let you know really quickly that I will be happy to have a live debate with you. As soon I have time to write I want to elaborate more on your yesterday’s comment. I also like to congratulate you really quick on your courage to own up to your projections and your apology is accepted. When people still have unresolved traumas projection or transference is unavoidable. Projection or transference is not easy to handle and I too apologize, if I was a little too harsh giving you back your projections or transference, but now is a great opportunity for you to resolve these painful feelings from old wounds in the right context and be free at last and not unconsciously and compulsively passing these painful feelings down into your child the next generation. You might like reading the article Transference by Alice Miller.

P’s letter talking about psychopathy

Hi P, I see that you read the forum on psychopathy. I am having a feeling that the forum about psychopaths is run by psychopaths! How ironic. I posted the comment in the link below and I think will be my last comment, because just like they say: you can't win with psychopaths.
http://sylvieshene.blogspot.com/2012/08/my-comment-on-forum-about.html 

P: Once again I couldn't agree more with you, Sylvie! Yes, I came across this forum by chance and found the original entry by Mariama about Alice Miller and Barbara Rogers quite reasonable, as well as your comments on her "thoughts about Alice Miller". But later on the thread changes to the typical argumentation of the abused child, in order not to face their own childhood drama and to be able to go on admiring their "loving and good parents" they blame genetics for all kinds of evil, including psychopathy. As usual for this kind of people, they look for support in "scientific" evidence, discrediting Alice Miller as "unscientific" because unlike that of "serious" scientists her work is not based on experiments whose results are reflected in numbers and figures in statistics. They say said her findings are based on personal observation of few individual cases (of her patients) from which no general conclusions can be drawn because they simply can't bear the truth. Science is generally defined as "objective" results of research work whose truth must be proved by a series of experiments conducted in a certain way. Alice Miller was not interested in this (neither am I) because the fact that most children in this world in all times have been abused in one way or the other is so obvious that it does not need "scientific" research and statistic, for example by means of those books the people in the psychopath forum recommend you to read because for them it is essential to have a "proof" that everything is genetic and thus spare their parents. Certainly it would be interesting to read one of them, but I don't think they would change my mind. Even though I am not an expert in genetics, I simply do not believe in the existence of "evil" or "psychopathical" genes. Neither do I see the point they make between becoming "neurotic", which they admit can be caused due upbringing and becoming a psychopath, which according to them is genetic. I think there is a small percentage of genetic predisposition to REACT to being treated in one way or the other, for example, not ALL abused children become abusers. However, the chance to grow up emotionally healthily depends highly on the way we are treated from our earliest childhood on, starting with a conscious pregnancy and humane birth.

For Alice, you and me and fortunately some more people, more than "scientific accuracy" (if there is such a thing, and if there is: What are its parameters??? Who is the only to define what is "science" and what is not?? :::::)the important thing is to spread the word about the dramatic, worldwide dimension of child abuse, make people see to what extent it affects us all and HOPEFULLY bring about a change FOR OUR ALL GOOD!

Finally, I absolutely agree with you, as you I would not go participating in that forum. It's simply a waste of time and energy, those people are too narrow-minded to see the truth about their education. Maybe you're right, they are psychopaths themselves. I just skimmed through the site and got the impression they are pretty esoteric and cultist, just my impression, I actually did not take much time reading their entries and I don't think I will. The more I think about it, ANY kind of spirituality is getting more and more suspicious to me. WHY DO WE ALWAYS NEED A "SUPERIOR" AUTHORITY (call it god, or whatever you want) in order to justify our existence on this planet and "behave well" in order to please this authority. Isn't it enough to be ethical just because everybody feels and gets on better this way??? Why do I have to respect nature because it's "god's creation" and not just because it is beautiful and I love it, no matter where, when, how and why it came into existence????
I could go on and on with this....but for the moment just....

HUGS AND KISSES TO YOU

 

Sylvie: Hi P
Thanks for writing. I enjoy reading every word and I could not agree more with you.
I came across this forum, because I have a Google alert on Alice Miller and on my own name, so if anyone mentions me or Alice on the net I get a Google alert and that is why I found this forum because of Mariama’s post about Alice Miller been deceived by the psychopath of Barbara Rogers. I feel a little sad for Mariama because I could feel her pain by her last post addressing me. I don’t think she is aware that she is surrounded by psychopaths in that forum, but I am not posting there anymore, just in case she is a psychopath too and posted that post to manipulate people to join their group. After a recently experience I had with a psychopath that was saying to me all the right things, but only she wanted was money from me and the moment I said no to her and she saw she could not manipulate me to do what she wanted me to do, she had no more use for me and became vicious like Barbara Rogers was to Alice, so now I am really question everyone that crosses my path. The reason I posted again on the forum was because I just wanted to let them know that the word “explore” in my earlier post was supposed to be “exploit” and then I decided to share with them that I agree with Alice Miller that psychopathy is not genetic, but created by parental and society’s ignorance. In the middle ages people thought mental disorders were the cause of people being possessed by the devil or evil spirits and sadly in some parts of the world they still think that people with mental illness are possessed by bad spirits, it happened to me as a teenager that my oldest sisters took me to see a friend of theirs, a cult leader of spiritist group, based on the books of Allan Kardec, supposedly a great medium that talked with dead spirits of big personalities, my sister’s friend also talked with dead spirits, what a show! Some people in the group were very good actors, they even changed voices when a spirit was using their bodies as a medium. They thought my anger and bad behavior was the cause of bad spirits taking possession of my body, because I was a weak person and bad spirits take advantage of me, and they would do this head and shoulders massages on me to cleanse me of the bad spirits, I knew, they all were full of it, but I would go along with their massages, because they felt good! :-) The reason I was so angry and acting out was because I could not take their lies, hypocrisy and ignorance. The scientists in modern times, they don’t want to blame the devil or bad spirits, they are too sophisticated for that, so let’s blame “bad genes” people are just born bad, same song, different tune, nothing changes, so people don’t have to confront their parents and see them as they really were and keep their illusions of their loving parents. It’s all copout, so they don’t have to take responsibility and face and feel the pain that they have contributed to the creation of these psychopaths with their ignorance, hypocrisy and their illusion of love. Alice Miller was a true scientist and I am more of a scientist than these mad scientists hiding behind “bad genes” so they don’t have to look in the mirror and confront their internalized parents.
Alice Miller was a very classic person and refrained from labeling people with psychiatric disorders and I too don’t like to put labels on people, but sometimes we have to call a spade a spade and people that get conceptual knowledge and then use it to try to manipulate others, so they don’t have to face and consciously experience the repressed emotions of the child they once were in the context of their own childhood are true psychopaths.
Hugs to you too,
Sylvie