These words by Alice Miller come to mind: “Are women Less Aggressive than Men?
In my view women are by no means less aggressive than men. Of course, they are victimized and disadvantaged by men avenging themselves for the beating they received from their mothers. But women avenge themselves for such victimization and physical cruelty by taking it out on their little children, thus breeding new generations of avengers who consciously love and honor their parents.
I see no real difference between the cruelty of women and that of men because both sexes have learned such sadism at the hands of their parents and caregivers at the time when their brains were still in the process of formation. As children, they were subjected to cruelty and even perversion, but they not allowed to defend themselves. So later take out their repressed anger on other defenseless people, frequently in the same way their parents treated them when they were small. Women frequently vent this acquired sadism on their children. While men also give free rein to it by victimizing employees at work or lower military ranks, or else participating in orgies of violence like genocide or terrorist attacks. The causes invariable lie in the repressed and totally denied suffering of their childhood (though most of them will insist that they had wonderful parents). People who were not humiliated, tormented, or beaten in their early years are incapable of sadism.
Women can live out all kinds of covert perversion on their children and torment them impunity as long as they call this behavior “good parenting.” Society idealizes mothers because people have never consciously realized that their own mothers treated them cruelly when they were small. Accordingly, women normally enjoy total immunity.
I see no sex-specific differences in the suicide bombers. I understand terrorism as an attempt to compensate for the humiliations these people were subjected to, but have never consciously perceived as such, by means of a “magnificent deed” (such as sacrificing their own lives for the sake of a group).
Though it is not difficult to understand this dynamic, there are not many people who would allow themselves to give up their denial and look the truth in the face. The fear felt by the tormented children they once were can prevent this all their lives.”
From the book “Free from Lies: Discovering your true needs” By Alice Miller Page 140
Also these words I wrote in a comment in response to another anti-feminist come to mind:
“I have tried to stay out of discussions and commenting on other people’s posts because I have a tendency to trigger people’s repressed anger and then they delete me in anger, but I can’t help myself and have to make this comment.
I don’t consider myself a feminist per se, but I am for women’s rights, children rights, and men’s rights, I am for every breathing living beings' rights.
I know a lot of feminists are too afraid to go to the roots why some men and women try so hard to repress them, but I am grateful for a lot of the accomplishments some feminists were able to do before me and I have come to enjoy thanks to their hard work.
Even though I wished the feminists had the courage to go deeper, because as long we refuse to go to the roots causes, will always going to be oppressors trying to repress us.
I totally understand their fears. Laurie accuses the feminists being a hate group, but I see Laurie’s anger very clear being transferred at the feminists' groups also.
Until people really consciously feel the fears and anger of the child they once were within the context of their own childhood, they will unconsciously and compulsively look for a scapegoat to relieve pen up anger and it seems the feminists have come to be the perfect scapegoat for Laurie.
These words below Alice Miller wrote to me before she passed come truer every day: “AM: I have learned over the years of my work on the internet that there are readers who SEEM to understand SOME of what I have written, at least intellectually, but they are still so afraid of their very cruel parents and of their repressed FEELINGS of rage towards them that they are constantly looking for scapegoats. They thus live in a continual confusion pretending that they are healed and even offering help and empathy to others. But eventually they use unconsciously other people (even the ones who are quite friendly to them) as a poisonous container like their parents did to them, and if the offended people begin to defend themselves they can become very mean. I can only urge you to trust your feelings and to NOT offer your empathy and interest to everybody just because they say they read and understood everything I have written. In most of the cases, it is a lie. To understand my books means to overcome the fear of one’s parents, to honestly feel the justified rage TOWARD THEM and to no longer use others to getting free from the accumulated rage.”
I've seen that last part, what Miller wrote to you, before. It impressed me pretty good the first time. I don't think she wrote to many people that way. It's like somehow she'd gotten the idea that you grokked - you 'got it' - probably more than most. I never had direct contact with her. I never tried. I was only hanging around to see what I could learn. So that eventually I might be able to effectively do something about it. Cause I was (still am) pissed about how people are. Have no idea what she would have made of me.
I can't put words in her mouth, but I bet she'd agree with me that if people took even half the interest in children's rights as they do their own - I mean either men's or women's - that before long there'd be no need for what either group is shouting about. But it's hard to persuade people. Thanks for adding!
I had only been trying to find out if anybody had half-way figured out yet what the deal is with people who shake babies, or throw them up against bathroom walls where they suffer massive brain concussions, sliding lifelessly into the bathtub, or who otherwise just torture them mercilessly, months on end, until they die. The local paper had been full of that for years. I was sick of it and finally snapped. You just get tired of waking up in the morning to read The Unbelievably Mindblowingly Moronic Strike Stupidly Yet Again.
So that's just the paper and not even counting the crap these idiots pull in Walmarts and places like that, stuff that never makes the news.
I mean, I could full well easily understand how Democrats would hate Republicans, and how Republicans would hate Democrats. Any idiot could. It just takes a few functioning brain cells. Not cerebrum ones either, just a couple in the amygdalas or somewhere like that. And except for reporting on potholes and fires and basketball games, broadcasting how much everybody hates each other is what newspapers are FOR, for crying out loud.
So my motive all along has been selfish. Purely. There's some shit I just don't want to have to read. I don't want to *not* know about it if it happens, I just don't want it to be there in the goddam first place.
So I went out looking to see what there was to see. Couldn't imagine there weren't people who'd put a lot more time and effort into this garbage than I had, maybe somebody had figured something out.
You can't look for long before you run into Miller. Thing is, though everything you read and hear about her - including the name of her site - that she's about "child abuse and mistreatment", it's not really true.
The question that had been driving me was (and still is, really) "Why do idiots treat kids bad and what can be done about it?" Her question though, the one she'd had to start with - and she says this clearly I think in several places, maybe once in For Your Own Good - had been "Where does evil (itself) come from?"
Big difference. In my case, since I wasn't looking for anything at all even close to that, it was hair-raising. Not what I'd been interested in or expecting, and more than I could deal with. If the answer she'd come up with had been "Democrats" or "french fries", that's what her work would have focused on.
And naturally she's pooh-poohed a lot. She's pooh-poohed way more than she's taken seriously. People look at her for a second and then say "Oh yeah, that's a problem, no doubt, but it's nowhere near as bad as the fact that there are Republicans, or guns, or capitalism, or socialism, or the Patriarchy or how women are such a bunch of immature, self-centered, emotional two-year-olds that they wouldn't know 'equality' if it jumped up and bit them on the butt."
I think they're wrong. I used to think child mistreatment was, same as they're saying, just one problem among many. I still have no real idea what to do about it, and thinking about that can make me nuts if I let it, but I do believe now that there's nothing more important than finding some solution.
Yes, it’s very frustrating to see everyone shouting about their rights, but no one wants to face and look at the root causes of why some groups work so hard to repress other groups.
There will never be a real long term solution to the world’s problems -- unless the majority of people -- especially those in power positions -- finds the courage to face their own personal history and consciously feel and understand all their emotions within the context of their own childhood -- otherwise everything else people do will just be a temporary and superficial fix --- as long the emotions of the child they once were, remain repressed and misunderstood -- they will be driven by them endless -- into a state of repetition compulsion -- of doing to others what once was done to them -- especially with their own children, if they have children.
I hate to say anything is 'good' about beating kids, but at least it can be seen. 'Anything else' can't. So for that reason I remain skeptical about programs designed to 'improve' parenting. Not that I couldn't be convinced, just that most of what I've seen so far has just been a shift from 'bad cop' to 'good cop'.
There seem to me to be way too many adults out there now who may *not* have been beaten, but still seem to have been denied the natural right to just have been a kid, as kids. And they end up 'projecting' that, as you say.
I think schools, and parents, should much as they're able stay out of the business of 'shaping young minds'. Leave them kids alone, in other words. Social engineering sucks and people really need to just stay away from it. Kids can tell when they're being manipulated, for one thing, and so it eventually backfires.
But you're right that it's important not to sink into pessimism.
Sylvie: Steve, "I can't put words in her mouth, but I bet she'd agree with me that if people took even half the interest in children's rights as they do their own - I mean either men's or women's - that before long there'd be no need for what either group is shouting about. But it's hard to persuade people."
I have no doubt Alice Miller would agree with you too! I agree completely with every word you wrote above.
The only march I will ever join and leave my house for -- would be a March for children's rights.
I could not agree more with you, Steve!
This is why Alice Miller focused mostly on corporal punishment because it could not be denied. But emotional abuse can be even more damaging because there is no evidence and therefore hard to prove and to heal from. Just like I wrote in my book page 118: “Alice Miller writes that “non-physical abuse can be as harmful as beatings. But it is often less visible.”60 I knew I was feeling hurt with Marty, but it took me a long time to recognize what was going on.”
And like Marie France Hirigoyen wrote in her book Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity: “"Physical violence can be testified to be outside evidence: eyewitness, police and medical reports. With emotional abuse, there is no proof. It's a clean violence. Nobody sees anything.” Read more HERE
Steve Thomas Sylvie, "The abuser tries to make the victim act against him so he can denounce her as “evil.” ". I know.
Sylvie Imelda Shene If I truly had not resolved my repression I would not have seen clearly the evil game the sociopaths at my job of nine and half years were playing -- trying to get me to self-destruct -- very few people will ever know what feels like having a mob of sociopaths conspiring together to try to get you to act against yourself! They literally wanted me dead, in Jail or mental hospital. After this experience, I will never again look at another human being in the same way.